Chapter 3 Questions

OGDEN - Discipleship Essential Chapter 3 – Questions

In relating the story of how Jesus prayed before calling out His disciples, Ogden suggests, "that Jesus was not so much trying to settle on the right ones as he was praying that they would become the right ones." (63) How might this suggestion change the way you see those in your small group?

Ron & Carolyn:

We would begin to look at them as potential small group leaders, rather than merely discussion participants; watching and noting how their faith appears to be developing.

Florence:

It encourages me to be nonjudgmental, to be accepting of all and to realize that we all have the potential of growing together in Christ. Similarly, St. Timothy’s is allowing me the opportunity to become a better leader. The important thing is that we are accepting of one another and eager to grow.

On page 66 Ogden states, "Jesus ministered to the crowd in order to call people out of it. One was not on the road to discipleship unless that person came out of the crowd to identify with Jesus." Is there anyone in your small group or at St. Timothy's that Jesus might be asking you to call "out of the crowd"? (No names but I encourage you to pray about this). If so, what might this call "out of the crowd" look like? Do you even have time for this?

Ron & Carolyn:

(1) Yes

(2) Invite that person to dinner or coffee, invite them to join a small group and ask them why they haven't joined a small group.

(3) No

Florence:

Within our group we are always most encouraging of one another, in a way inviting one another to come out of the crowd to identify with Jesus. Our strengths and talents are very different, but we all have talents to foster and use to help others.

On page 70 Ogden quotes Robert Coleman, "Perhaps today's pastor should imagine that they are going to have three more years in their parish (church) as pastor – that there will be no replacement for them when they leave. If they acted as if this were going to happen, they would put the highest priority on selecting, motivating, and training lay leaders that could carry on as much as possible the mission of the parish after they left. The results of three sustained years of such an approach would be significant. Even revolutionary." If we replace the word "parish" with "small group" how would you respond to this idea? What would you focus on? What priorities would change, if any?

Ron & Carolyn:

(1) That we probably be training additional leaders. It would be good to know that our demand is greater than the supply of small group leaders.

(2) Encourage those you see as having potential to lead or assist in leading a session. Get a good "starter" course with tons of supplements (e.g. DVD's) to get them used to doing it. Develop a training course designed to overcome apprehensions, focussing on the "how to", the backup support and the resourses (atlas, dictionary, how to read the bible book by book, etc.) available and at their disposal.

(3) Don't know what priorities we would change.

Florence:

Within St. Martin’s our Pastor left us at a crisis point because he felt that God did not want him to face the splitting of the congregation, but that someone else should lead us. This meant that during the first months, lay people were working together to try to see the way forward. We felt very clearly that we were being helped by god and in time there was help from the leaders of other parishes which had left the diocese and formed a cohesive group. It is important for parishioners to be involved in church matters and to feel they can carry out parts of the priest’s role.

In a small group context, it’s important to encourage group members to take on more of the leader’s role – which has frequently happened in our group. However, it needs to be worked on as all too easily people can become comfortable being “fed” and not wanting to use more energy on searching out knowledge for themselves and to share with others.

Chapter 2 - Questions

Transforming Discipleship – Chapter 2: “The Discipleship Malaise”

On page 40 Ogden argues that the leader’s primary calling is to equip or train “ordinary believers…for their place of service in the body of Christ.” (1) Do you agree or disagree? (2) Why? (3) How, if at all, do you fit into this primary calling as a small group leader?

Dara:

I agree. I do feel that as small group leaders we are ultimately able to foster growth/confidence/encourage for their place in the body. I do not sometimes feel as though I have much to pass along or my knowledge is not sufficient to do this properly. I do feel that the process we are going through right now is helping.

Ron & Carolyn:

(1) We agree (2) All of us need help and guidance. Ken needs to train others to perform the other tasks. (3) Small Group Leaders are smack dab in the middle, needing guidance and required to guide others.

Florence:

I agree that this is the primary calling – Ogden’s arguments are compelling. I’m not sure how I fit in. Possibly by close relationship with 6 others in our small group I am helping foster a discipling relationship – we are discipling one another. Maybe I am freeing Ken up to focus more closely on a few.

Patricia:

I agree that the leader’s primary calling is to equip and train ordinary believers…. But I think prior to reading this book I defined the leader as the Priest or Pastor and not the small group leader. I think that this could be one of the roles for the small group leader, but I am nowhere close to fulfilling this “calling”.

Sarah:

• I agree. The mission of the Church, as Body of Christ, is to “go and make disciples of all nations……..and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you”.
• As a small group leader and an ordinary believer and disciple, I recognize that it is my role to “Go and make disciples….” I also realize that I fall far short.

Ogden argues on page 48 that “we have made discipleship for super-Christians, not ordinary believers.” (1) What is your understanding of discipleship? (2) Are you a disciple of Jesus? (3) Are you called to help make disciples?

Dara:

I have always thought it was for "superChristians" (which I am not!!).

I am still unclear how and with what tools can a regular disciple disciple others?

Ron & Carolyn:

(1) To be like Jesus in every way, to give up self completely. (2) We’re trying but failing miserably. (3) Yes

Florence:

I think of discipleship as being for all. I don’t normally think of myself as being a disciple, but in the context of this book I feel I am one and that I am called to help make disciples.

Patricia:

I believe discipleship is a relational process where one becomes fully committed to following Jesus Christ. I believe I am learning and trying more to become fully committed to following Jesus. I believe that part of being a disciple is helping others with this process and so therefore if I am trying to be a disciple I must try and help others.

Sarah:

• I understand discipleship to be living a Christ centred life, in obedience to Christ’s teaching – it is an active role, rather than simply choosing to passively think of Christianity as living a good life, loving one another and acceptance of our salvation through Christ’s death on the cross.
• I am trying to be a disciple of Jesus, but am well aware of my many shortcomings. But Jesus also said “By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another”. I think this is one of our priorities at St. Timothy’s. For some reason, many Christians choose to think of Christ’s message, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples”, but the “going out to make disciples” message gets lost.
• I know I am called to help make disciples, but feel most inadequate for the task.

What do you make of Ogden’s comment on page 55 when he says, “The motivation and discipline will not ultimately occur through listening to sermons, sitting in a class, participating in a fellowship group, attending a study group in the workplace or being a member of a small group, but rather in the context of highly accountable, relationally transparent, truth-centered, small (three of four people) discipleship units.” Be honest…do you want to fight him? Is this overstating it? Is he making any sense?

Dara:

I can remember, not so long ago, when belonging to a small group was a huge step to take. I do see the that as long as people are able to remain passive( ie. showing up is the only requirement) then the pew gets comfortable again!

Now that I have been a part of a small group in some way for 6 years I do see it as a natural transition to make a step to a smaller more accountable group - but I really am not sure what that looks like either.

Ron & Carolyn:

The listed activities don’t call for personal accountability whereas a small discipleship unit is more nurturing and holds you accountable, same as a life coach. We don’t want to fight him, we don’t think this overstates it and he makes sense.


Florence:

I think he makes total sense. I have been to many excellent talks and groups, but it is easy to forget unless there is a constant reminder maybe through a discipleship unit.

Patricia:
I have some difficulty with Ogden on this issue. I know that this is how Jesus “worked” with his disciples, but in reality how possible is it for every individual to have the time to commit to yet another “small group”? I cannot believe that this is the only way that one can become a truly committed disciple of Jesus Christ????

Sarah:
I agree with this comment, although each of these methods of instruction plays an important role in the creation of disciples. However reluctant we might be to admit the truth of Ogden’s statement, in order to be motivated and disciplined in our discipleship, we need to accept responsibility for our discipleship role. This might be best achieved through belonging to a small discipleship unit, where we are accountable for achievement of our personal goals, for obedience to Christ’s word, and where we can encourage one another to pursue what is inevitably a very difficult path.

Chapter 2 - Evaluation

Take some time to rate St. Timothy’s in these areas of discipleship deficit. A “1” means this is true of St. Timothy’s and a “5” indicates that you feel this is not true at all of St. Timothy’s.

Dara:

Causes of Discipleship Deficit	Rating	Notes
Diversion from primary calling	3	Ken is certainly on the right track as a leader
Discipling through programs	3	Has been a great place to strart, but some people could get bogged down right here and not develop anymore
Reducing the Christian life	2	I sometimes woder if we are too hung up on Anglicanism Vs Jesus

A two-tiered understanding of discipleship	2	I do not know how a regular person becomes a disciple or what that looks like
Unwillingness to call people to discipleship	2	I would have trouble calling someone to be a disciple when I could not describe what it is
An inadequate view of the church	4	I think our church is at a critical point in paving the way to allow parishoners to become mature in their faith and mentor others along their path or becoming comfortable in the church and all its busyness
No clear pathway to maturity	2	I think we are paving the way right now

Lack of personal discipling

1

I think we may not be giving this the priority it deserves

Ron & Carolyn:

Causes of Discipleship Deficit	Rating	Notes
Diversion from primary calling	2	We do have a Pastoral Care team and a Grow team
Discipling through programs	1
Reducing the Christian life	1
A two-tiered understanding of discipleship	1
Unwillingness to call people to discipleship	3	Ken constantly and consistently calls us to do discipleship things (e.g. “40 Days of Prayer)
An inadequate view of the church	2	Our Parishioners are communal and use their gifts to benefit others.
No clear pathway to maturity	2	We have followed Rick Warren’s model to 1st base, leading off to 2nd.
Lack of personal discipling	1

Florence:

For some reason I find this very difficult to complete – it’s easier to rate myself than St. Timothy’s.

Causes of Discipleship Deficit	Rating	Notes
Diversion from primary calling	3	St. Timothy’s does give opportunities for many to share the varied aspects of church life.
Discipling through programs	2	Focus on programs can be helpful as a basis, especially when lay people take on religious education tasks.
Reducing the Christian life	5	There are many references to every-day living and growing closer to Christ.
A two-tiered understanding of discipleship	5	St Timothy’s strives to give equal opportunities to all.
Unwillingness to call people to discipleship	4	There is an openness that anticipates that people are willing to become more involved. The fact the St. Timothy’s initially started as a group without a pastor has meant the parishioners feel it’s normal to pitch in.
An inadequate view of the church	5	There is a very strong sense of community and love of the church family.
No clear pathway to maturity	2	There was initially focus on membership, with Rick Warren’s diamond being used as a basis, but there is no defined pathway beyond that point.
Lack of personal discipling	2	I think we learn from one another in an informal way, but there is no formal personal discipling.

Patricia:

Causes of Discipleship Deficit	Rating	Notes
Diversion from primary calling	?
Discipling through programs	3	I think there is an attempt to do this.
Reducing the Christian life	?
A two-tiered understanding of discipleship	?
Unwillingness to call people to discipleship	5
An inadequate view of the church	?
No clear pathway to maturity	4
Lack of personal discipling	3	Some available through small groups.

Sarah:

Causes of Discipleship Deficit	Rating	Notes
Diversion from primary calling	2	At St. Timothy’s we are often reminded of the Great Commission and the role we all have to play in bringing others to Christ.
Discipling through programs	1	To date, this is true.
Reducing the Christian life	2	I think many of us have been readily willing to accept the concept of salvation through Christ, but find it more difficult to die to the selfish life and follow Christ’s teaching..
A two-tiered understanding of discipleship	1	We often differentiate between discipleship as 1 - following Christ’s teaching and 2 -actively going out to create other disciples
Unwillingness to call people to discipleship	2	I think people are called, but are reluctant to follow this part of Christ’s teaching. Our mission statement includes going out to call people to discipleship.
An inadequate view of the church	3	At St. Timothy’s, with the creation of the new church body, we have clearly shown that our church is indeed meaningful to us.
No clear pathway to maturity	2	As a relatively new church, we are establishing our “pathway to maturity, not simply through programs, but with the gradual introduction of different spiritual disciplines.
Lack of personal discipling	1	We do not currently practice accountable relationships or discipleship units.

Chapter 1 - Evaluation

How do you think St. Timothy’s is doing in the 7 areas mentioned by Ogden? Refer to pages 24-37 to review the different marks of discipleship.

Dara:

Rate your ministry on a scale of 1 to 5, with 1 being low (negative) and 5 being high (positive).
Discipleship Symptom	Rating	Notes
Passive Recipients…Proactive Ministers	2	I think we have a unique makeup. Most of our church list is involved. The problem is we do not have enough people therefore, some people are actively doing several different duties to contribute to the body. ie 80% are doing at least one thing while 20% are contributing two or more duties/responsibilities. The problem is that if some people are doing just one thing they feel they do not need to do any more.
Spiritually Disciplined…Spiritually undisciplined	1	There is a real concern that as we learn from the small groups, retreats , sermons and conferences that we still refuse to fill the gap between our spiritual life and who we present outside the Church. As a Church we have taken a great leap even to try any of the above!!(we were a “0” before!!)
Private Faith…Holistic Discipleship	2	Difficult balancing act – trying to be a light in the world (what does this look like anyway!?) and not of the world, yet fully committed to a functional Body of Christ!
Blending in…Countercultural Force	3	In a world that is buying into “shopping” around for church for example, great music, sermons that are over the top appealing to everyone but avoiding the true answers to real questions. This are the same people that believe they do not even have to attend Church to be “spiritual”. I would like to think that at St. Timothy’s we provide more answers to real questions and that we are able to equip and provide support to grow each of us into mature Christains in this world.
Church is optional…Church is essential	2	Very much the belief is that “people do not need to go to Church to be Spiritual” – I have heard this many times in and out of the Church.
Biblical illiterate…Biblically informed	2	I think that as a Church out belief/faith has come first before biblical knowledge and now we are catching up! We were led astray by being belief based only and Not knowing our Bibles!
Shrinking from personal witness…Sharing our faith	1	We could do this a whole lot more – people in our congregation have so many amazing stories to share. I think that it is difficult to do and takes skill, confidence and much prayer.

Ron & Carolyn:

Rate your ministry on a scale of 1 to 5, with 1 being low (negative) and 5 being high (positive).
Discipleship Symptom	Rating	Notes
Passive Recipients…Proactive Ministers	3	Virtually every member of St. T’s is involved in some form of Ministry (set-up, sidesmen, coffee, alter guild, counters, SS, servers & administrators, choir, etc). It is only the newcomers who haven’t yet been asked who are not involved.
Spiritually Disciplined…Spiritually undisciplined	2	Although we receive instruction and are encouraged each Sunday at worship services to do read the Bible daily a large number of us have not established that habit.
Private Faith…Holistic Discipleship	3	Not all of us park our faith when we go on the job, but rather consistently make decisions based upon our moral code and beliefs. We belief that most of us behave in a consistent manner whether inside or outside of the church.
Blending in…Countercultural Force	3	Our Society and its laws were heavily influenced by Christianity and Biblical Truths in the past. That is our Society’s heritage. As a result the vast majority of Canadians act in a manner similar to Christians, only they call it the “Canadian way”. Accordingly we are seen as blending in. However there are issues where we are a countercultural force (e.g. “same sex marriage) and other Christians (Catholics and Evangelicals) that are a force against other cultural issues (e.g. abortion)
Church is optional…Church is essential	4	Since we left the ACC and started our own church upon a biblical truth issue and were willing to each sign a covenant, we believe that we at St. T’s are very committed and that church attendance is essential.
Biblical illiterate…Biblically informed	3	The approx. ¼ of our membership that is involved in small groups we give a 3-4. For everyone else we give a 1-2. To be biblically informed requires continuous in depth study. Individual reading and Sunday sermons are not enough to be really informed.
Shrinking from personal witness…Sharing our faith	1	Most of us are still too reserved, introverted and lacking in self-confidence to feel comfortable sharing our faith in public.

Sarah:

Rate your ministry on a scale of 1 to 5, with 1 being low (negative) and 5 being high (positive).
Discipleship Symptom	Rating	Notes
Passive Recipients…Proactive Ministers	2	Still some who do not participate in any of the ministries
Spiritually Disciplined…Spiritually undisciplined	3	I believe that most of our members are disciplined in prayer and Bible reading, and about 25% is involved in small group discussion.
Private Faith…Holistic Discipleship	1	Many of us have relegated our faith to our private life and are reluctant (or afraid) of taking it into our social and work environments.
Blending in…Countercultural Force	1	Based on the above response, most of us choose to “blend in” too frequently.
Church is optional…Church is essential	1	St. Timothy’s members seem to value their church membership – we have had to work together and have been willing to fight for our existence.
Biblical illiterate…Biblically informed	3	We have had excellent instruction from sermons, even on the more obscure books, are given weekly recommended reading and many attend small group discussion.
Shrinking from personal witness…Sharing our faith	1	Most are prepared to share their faith with each other, but shrink from openly speaking of it with strangers. We have a long way to go.

Patricia:

Rate your ministry on a scale of 1 to 5, with 1 being low (negative) and 5 being high (positive).
Discipleship Symptom	Rating	Notes
Passive Recipients…Proactive Ministers	2	I think that there are too many of us who are not prepared to take “risks” and use our gifts.
Spiritually Disciplined…Spiritually undisciplined	1	We are quite committed to Sunday attendance, but not committed to daily disciplines.
Private Faith…Holistic Discipleship	1	Not sure exactly what is meant by this… I think many of us prefer to keep our faith private, and not express our hopes, failures, and concerns and receive support from other believers.
Blending in…Countercultural Force	1	I don’t think the majority of us look/act any different than others in society.
Church is optional…Church is essential	3	I think since we almost “lost” our church we highly value our church life.
Biblical illiterate…Biblically informed	3	I think with our weekly sermon and small group attendance this is improving
Shrinking from personal witness…Sharing our faith	1	Not even close! I think we need, dare I say, a “project” where we can demonstrate Christ’s love to the community. I think we could be good at this, but with our small numbers we would need to refocus on others rather than ourselves.

Florence:

Rate your ministry on a scale of 1 to 5, with 1 being low (negative) and 5 being high (positive).
Discipleship Symptom	Rating	Notes
Passive Recipients…Proactive Ministers	2	Probably the 80/20 rule applies.
Spiritually Disciplined…Spiritually undisciplined	2	I feel that efforts are being made, but there is a very long struggle ahead to become more spiritually disciplined.
Private Faith…Holistic Discipleship	1	I think most find it very difficult to bring Jesus Christ to the workplace or neighborhood.
Blending in…Countercultural Force	1	I feel that most do not have the strength to avoid blending in.
Church is optional…Church is essential	3	Because St. Timothy folk went through the choice of leaving the Diocese of New Westminster, I think we value our church more.
Biblical illiterate…Biblically informed	2	Because of the liberal Anglican attack on the bible, over the last six years we have valued it more and more seek to further their study of it.
Shrinking from personal witness…Sharing our faith	1	Most of us seem to have difficulty in this area – possibly a fear of being rebuffed or an uncertainty of being able to convince if we are challenged.

Chapter 1 - Questions

Question 1:

On page 22, Greg Ogden identifies a goal of filling the church with “self-initiating, reproducing, fully devoted followers of Christ…” Do you agree that this should be one of our goals at St. Timothy’s? Why? If you’re not sure, what do questions do you have?


Your Answers:

Dara: I do agree that we need to grow/align our congregation to this purpose. Yes we have a mission for the church but so we actually internalize that? Even “church” itself is it optional? There is little accountability in the congregation for being a devoted follower of Christ. Small groups help as do many of the other ‘G’s”, but there is no clear pathway for someone that has been called or is trying to fulfill their Godly gifts.

Ron & Carolyn: Yes, although not by recruiting from outside, but rather by developing those who come as they are to St. Timothy’s and stay.

Sarah: I agree

Patricia: I completely agree with this quote.

Florence: I agree wholeheartedly.


Question 2:

On page 23, Ogden quotes Cal Thomas as saying, “The problem in our culture…isn’t the abortionists. It isn’t the pornographers or drug dealers or criminals. It is the undisciplined, undiscipled, disobedient, and Biblically ignorant Church of Jesus Christ.” Do you agree or disagree? Why?

Dara: I think this is a harsh statement. We are all human!! Sinners!! The difference is that some of us are trying to be a “light in the world” and yet fully committed to the body of Christ, we fall short every time.

Ron & Carolyn: To some degree, yes. Just as much so it is those non-practicing “Christians” who have been introduced to Christianity at some time in their life and learned some of the biblical truths and remained ignorant of or ignored other biblical truths (e.g. “sanctity of life”).

Sarah: I think the statement a bit too sweeping – I do agree that Christians, on the whole, do not stand apart by consistently setting a good example of Christ-like behaviour. If we, those who profess to be Christians, were true disciples of Jesus, we would have greater impact on the morality and pervasive selfishness in the world generally.

Patricia: I agree with this quote. I believe that if Christians were disciplined, discipled, obedient and biblically aware we would be able to “impact” and change our culture with the love and forgiveness of Christ. We would be different, we would “stand out”, rather than just blending in with society. The problems that we experience in today’s culture are really no different or no worse than the problems they faced in years past. Sadly many who call themselves Christians are no different than others in society.

Florence: I agree partly. All the above are problems in our culture. The church is perhaps the worst problem as it is not sufficiently committed to cleaning up the others and does not fully understand that all is possible with God’s help.